26 March 2007 @ 03:14 am
Narrative Function; Or Why I Should Learn To Tell Myself To Stop  
Yesterday a post went up on [info]metafandom (and, as we all know, that is never good for my sense of procrastination) titled "In search of the female anti-hero". The post, by [info]erinya posits what she views as an anti-hero (or, rather, what definition she's using) and the concept of a female anti-hero, then asks people to provide examples they feel fit.

I responded to it and I like what I said but, a day later, I feel like I still have more to say and most of it wouldn't be all that relevant to [info]erinya's post. Which is what my LJ is for, is it not? Thus, a post on narrative functions in protagonists (sans villians). I'll warn now that it might not have a conclusion, but I wanted to put all my thoughts down.

Nearly a year ago I transferred from a larger, co-educational college to a smaller all-women one. Someday I'll write up exactly how different attending Mills has been and how much it's changed how I, someone who had been pretty self-aware to start with, view myself and the world, but for now it suffices to say that no one attends Mills very long without certain things coming into awareness. It's not that the school is one large feminist conspiracy (though I've heard its critics refer to it as that, as well as a den of sinful debauchery and lesbianism) but it's inevitable that you come to see certain things.

For one, even here, people start to notice that while the male professors in general seem to have trouble finding current, relevant texts and sources to convey what they want to in courses, the female professors don't seem to have that problem. And from that comes the awareness that it isn't that no women are writing academic works in traditionally male (or even not traditionally male) fields, but that those works aren't -- in large part -- being taught. I know they're being made because my female professors never seem to have trouble finding them. So, while no one's ever, not even in my film or literature courses, come right out and said "How does gender apply here?" without some sort of caveat it's mostly true that they don't have to.

Perhaps it's unsurprising then that when I clicked on [info]erinya's post and read it all the way through, then read the comments all the way through, I wasn't only interested in her (I presume her, in fandom, but erinya might be a him) question about gender and heroism but in the presumptions that not only s/he was making but that the commentors were making as well. In the post s/he hesitates to call the "female anti-hero" an "anti-heroine" because that might be different, but it doesn't matter in the end: her commentors make the distinction for her. They classify a female anti-hero -- and by virtue of calling one a female anti-hero versus an anti-hero who happens to be female the discussion's already been started in that direction -- as something distinct from a male anti-hero, without ever defining why or if that makes these characters they list (including Starbuck, Laura Roslin, Izzie Stevens, The Bride, etc.) female anti-heroes instead of anti-heroines.

And that left me wanting for a categorization and for the distinction to be made between these narrative functions and then how gender does and doesn't play a role in those functions.

On the base, roles like Hero, Heroine, Anti-Hero, Anti-Heroine, etc. are all narrative functions which characters inhabit to further the course of a plot or conflict within a plot. In the case of these four roles they are narrative functions which can only be inhabited by the protagonist, where protagonist means "the main character in a drama or other literary work." (American Heritage Dictionary) Extending literary work to include all forms of media in which there is storytelling [specifically, for this discussion: television] the simple, working definition is the/a main character in a story.

As such Hero, Heroine, Anti-Hero, and Anti-Heroine are all narrative functions which can only be inhabited by a main character. Simply speaking, a narrative function is a general classification of behavior or tendency which defines what sort of role a character or action is representing. We all use them and we all read them. Some people call them conventions and, famously, Carl Jung referred to a very refined version of them as archetypes (which was later referenced by Joseph Campbell in "A Hero's Journey"). These conventions are a basic sort of shorthand so that the reader, or viewer, understands and can empathize with the characters being presented (either positively or negatively) on a visceral and immediate level. Even once the characters develop and grow past these basic formations -- as good and great characters do -- they should still be, to new viewers, recognizable and relatable as such.

What's important about this is that besides possessing certain definitions, then, each of these functions exist outside of gender. While traditionally each of these functions has a gender to the characters which inhabit them, the definitions do not by necessity required them to have such. And this essentially means that the classification of a female anti-hero is, by definition, unworkable. A character is either an anti-hero or not an anti-hero.

To make a point of this, examples seem appropriate. But, first, to establish the definitions:

Hero: A hero is a character who possesses (masculine) heroic qualities. These qualities include courage, independence and freedom of thought (in Western tendency), strength, honesty to allies, often but not necessarily cleverness, an unwillingness to go back on one's word or fight an unarmed person (a sense of fairness), and a willingness to risk oneself for others.

Conversely, a Heroine possesses many of these qualities, with the addition of some and the reduction of others. A heroine should be brave, kind (versus merely fair), pure of spirit (and body), honest, often but not necessarily clever, nurturing, level-headed, and willing to sacrifice oneself for others. Independence or freedom of thought isn't valued in a heroine, ultimately, as she should be willing to defer to her eventual love match or at the least her mentor, though she may possess these qualities at first. (Though they will usually be described more negatively, such as stubbornness versus strength of spirit, or being contrary versus following one's own path.) And much more emphasis is put on sacrifice rather than mere risk.

As such, an anti-hero and an anti-heroine follow different qualifications because one is a counterpoint to the Hero convention and another to the heroine convention.

An Anti-Hero is a character who lacks in (masculine) heroic qualities, especially bravery, fairness, willingness to risk oneself for others, and honesty. Necessarily s/he will be motivated by something other than the desire to do good, typically an ignoble emotion like jealousy, fear (survival), spite, or revenge. While ultimately s/he will do the right thing, even though they're more likely to do horrifying things to achieve it, they will not do so merely because it is the right thing, unlike the hero.

In contrast, an Anti-Heroine is something different. S/he isn't a character who necessarily lacks in (masculine) heroic qualities but rather in (feminine) heroinic ones (and, yes, I did just make up a word but, since the words available are so lacking to make the distinction, I'm going to go with it). Many of these characters are made out to be villains, but few do exist in a similar way to an anti-hero. Such a character typically is not selfless, not pure, not nurturing, and is independent and free of thought. Moreover, when you do see such a character in a narrative who isn't villainized they're portrayed as amoral versus immoral but capable of good (which I'll discuss in more length later).

With these definitions established, it's easier to put characters we know into each category.

In [info]erinya's post she calls Malcolm Reynolds (of "Firefly") an anti-hero. It's a small point in a larger post but one which I initially got caught up on because while Malcolm Reynolds may not be a good man, necessarily, by the context of the modern Western construct of a "good man" (because he is a criminal) within the context of his universe his narrative construct is. What I mean by this is that Mal is, by our definition, a good man despite the fact he is a criminal against the Alliance. A case in point is when, in the episode "Train Job," he abandons a desperately needed payday in order to release a life-saving case of medication to the poor population of an outlying moon. In other actions, where he is salvaging from dead ships or stealing from the Alliance (such as in Serenity the movie), he is doing so against the established evil within the universe.

Malcolm Reynolds is a good man because the Alliance is a bad system and he wishes to stop them purely because they are bad (and narratively established as evil) and he believes it is the right thing to do. This is what leads him on his acts of heroic bravery towards Miranda in the movie and into facing the Alliance agent at the end instead of opting for self-preservation. It's also what leads him to keeping on the troublesome and death-attracting Tam siblings as early as Serenity (the pilot). He may do bad things but he makes good choices and wants to do the right thing in terms of the overarching universe.

On the same note, Buffy Summers of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," who isn't pure or nurturing or selfless, is also a hero. She possesses all the (masculine) heroic qualities which define such. In doing so she also bucks many feminine qualities but, because she is motivated by the desire to do good, she also isn't an anti-heroine. By the same note, early seasons of Kara 'Starbuck' Thrace of "Battlestar Galactica (2003)" is also a hero; given that she was based directly off an originally male character, this is unsurprising.

What may be surprising to some is that as the character of Starbuck has developed she has become more of a heroine; she's begun to take on the qualities of heroinism, such as nurturing (with Kasey), purity (though this certainly isn't her strongest suit she's become more pure of spirit, if not body, as the show has progressed, as evidenced by her destiny), and willingness to sacrifice herself.

For a more conventional (and immediate) example of a classic heroine, one can take characters like Sam(antha) Carter of "Stargate: SG-1" or Claire Bennet from "Heroes." Both characters possess bravery, honesty, etc. and also purity (Claire in a child-like sense, Carter in the sense that she does not engage in sexual relations without an emotional attachment unlike her male colleagues), nurturing (ever notice how many of Claire's scenes have to do with the kitchen or taking care of her mother? Or how Carter is preoccupied with family and doubts her choice, which was motivated by her father's desire, of a career over family?), and selflessness. They're heroines in a distinct sense from the heroes that their shows also possess.

Another example of a heroine is also from "Heroes". Peter Petrelli is very much a heroine in the qualities that he possesses, with the anvilicious hospice nursing job as the tip-off and all his resulting actions as basically supporting qualities. Not only is Peter selfless, willing to sacrifice himself (for example, knowing that to save Claire he will have to die and doing so anyway is far beyond merely risking himself), but the need for validation is the underpinning of his entire relationship with his brother Nathan. Nathan steps in as an authority figure to follow, and when Nathan becomes lacking Peter substitutes Simone and, then, Claude. He's even established as pure, with Nathan -- and the recent revelation of Mama Petrelli -- taking the taint onto themselves to protect Peter's purity.

As I hope is becoming clear by now, as narrative functions conventions like "Hero" and "Heroine" are genderless though the words to describe them and attributes encompassed by them may not be. In the same sense, the anti-hero and anti-heroine are conventions which can apply across genders (and to genderless characters, if we really want to go there).

Which might be why the most obvious anti-hero on television is, to me, Veronica Mars of "Veronica Mars". While purported to be a marshmallow, Veronica is motivated almost exclusively by revenge and a sense of protectiveness towards what is hers. She lacks is nearly all heroic qualities excepting a nearly suicidal sense of bravery and her idea of right and wrong is questionable at best. She often does the right thing but to suit her own needs or to satisfy her own curiosity or, in the case of pursuing Lilly's murderer, because she's incapable of letting go. The incident with Madison's car, though she ultimately withdrew her plan, is quintessential Veronica Mars (and parallels nicely the destruction of Dick's new surfboard in S1).

Other anti-heroes include Jayne Cobb of "Firefly", as much as he can be considered a protagonist at all. Jayne's motivation to do the right thing often has a monetary or personal payoff and, when it doesn't, he fights against doing it (his primary conflict with Mal Reynolds, in fact). And one of my favorite anti-heroes ever is Cole Turner of "Charmed," who is motivated almost exclusively by his desire to please Phoebe Halliwell and does good only to get on her good side.

And, finally, the anti-heroine. The anti-heroine is distinct from the anti-hero, as the heroine is distinct from the hero. They contain many of the same traits, of course, but the way anti-heroines manifest, in particular, in order to become tainted, selfish, and often cold without becoming villain(esses) is very much exclusive or singular to the anti-heroine process. Unlike anti-heroes, who can be presented sympathetically without having to be necessarily justified (because spite and revenge are acceptable masculine emotions and masculine persons aren't expected to be selfless), anti-heroines must be worked up to being sympathetic. A common way to do this, the most common way, in fact, is by first breaking them down into nearly nothing and then rebuilding them.

River Tam of "Firefly" is the best example of this on recent television. To take from my comment on the post that started this all, because I can, anti-heroines are characters who began as representations of goodness, who have been broken down by the moral or social majority, and who were rebuilt into something outside of the moral lines but still capable of good actions.

In River's case, she began as an adorable prodigy, who was destroyed by the Alliance, rebuilt by her brother with the assistance of a confused ship captain and his crew, and who came to be something more than she could have achieved within the lines of the Alliance. Ultimately, her choice to stop the Alliance -- and it is her actions which lead to the Alliance being stopped, with Mal's actions paralleling hers in importance -- isn't about doing the right thing like Mal's is. River's motivations are about making the crazy stop and saving her brother's life. She manages to accomplish both and, in the course of these actions take down the monster, but that isn't her goal. Her goal is to survive and stop what's hurting her in a visceral way.

It's not surprising that anti-heroines often go through phases of being crazy. Faith, from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Angel the Series," also has to go through that crucible (driven there by Buffy and her paradigm of goodness) in order to come to a place where she can live with who and what she is while still doing, ultimately, the right thing. As late as her appearance on season seven of "Buffy," Faith's motivations are less about saving the world and more about having a monster to fight. She doesn't perceive herself as good and neither do the other characters (a tense confrontation with Dawn draws attention to this) and, when at odds with Buffy, Buffy's morality wins out as always.

Ben Hawkins of "Carnivale," who has been so twisted by those who surround him that he no longer possesses an accurate sense of what is right and wrong, and thus relies mostly on what's least likely to get him probably killed (or just what he's stubbornly attached to at the moment, such as the insistence on his mother's burial in the pilot) is an anti-heroine in that sense. The world has broken him, despite his wondrous gift, and he refuses to accept his destiny when confronted with it. Instead, only once it's pushed onto him, by his father, his mentor, and the mastermind of the entire plan, does Hawkins begin to accept what he must do. And, ultimately, it is not the desire to do good that leads him to action but the desire to save a woman he loves (as much as he's capable of love) from herself and to draw revenge on the evil that's been plaguing him -- metaphysically -- at every step since this journey began.

The reason Ben Hawkins is an anti-heroine and not an anti-hero, however, is because we're given glimpses of the qualities he was once and would still be capable of if not for what the world -- and his mother -- had done to him. His purity of body and spirit, especially in a world as casual about sex as the one he's surrounded by; his willingness towards self-sacrifice in the way he attempts to kill himself to save Ruthie; and the way he was once nurturing, especially in the scene of his childhood where he resurrects a dead kitten only to have his mother drown it, are all qualities a heroine, not a hero, possesses. If not for the fact he'd come so twisted by what people did to those qualities, he would be a heroine (even his skill lies in healing).

And that's most of what I have to say, though I have some final thoughts on pairing two or more of these narrative functions together. For example, the pairing of Hero and Anti-Heroine in "Firefly" with Mal Reynolds and River Tam. Or, for an example I'd like to talk about, the pairing of Hero and Anti-Hero in "Supernatural."

This example has a particular significance because of two things: (1) who the roles are assigned to within the show and (2) how close the character's actions are to each other, so much so that it comes down primarily to motivation. In "Supernatural," a tale of two brothers fighting supernatural forces that maim or kill, there is one brother who is something of a slut, who causes trouble and drinks too much, who is perfectly okay with lying or stealing with survive and continue on with his mission; and then there's the moral brother. However, it's the moral brother, Sam Winchester, who's the anti-hero because of what their motivations are.

While on the surface Dean's actions are more devious and deviant, he only does these things (well, okay, except the sleeping around thing and even then Dean's established as desiring the chance to settle down and taking the multiple women as a second best) in order to be able to continue the mission. And he does the mission to save people, to destroy evil, to make the world a better place. He considers it his duty to do these things because it's, in his view, the only thing he's good for. That and protecting his brother, which he may or may not be able to do anymore.

On the other hand, the more morally adept brother, Sam, does not see it as a duty, or a mission, or the right thing to do. He is on this road, like his father was before him, for revenge. He wants revenge for the death of his girlfriend, for the demise of his safety, for the man his father become and the sacrifice of his childhood, and for the fact that the evil singled out him to take part. He wants it dead and gone because he wants to survive and be safe from other things and from what he could become. When he does single out someone to save it's almost certainly someone with an emotional, personal connection to him and not merely someone innocent (as Dean seeks to protect).

The difference between Dean and Sam then is motivation, and the Supernatural writers do a job of making that distinction clear. In a way, this makes both of the characters more effective in their narrative functions. Like the villian and hero offset each other, the hero and anti-hero (or anti-hero and heroine, or hero and anti-heroine, etc) compliment each other and bring each other's strongest qualities to the forefront. I think that in part, if both brothers were heroes in narrative function, Supernatural wouldn't work as a two-person cast. As is, it does.

And now I've finally come to an end of this very, very long piece of observation. I hope those of you who made it to the end found it interesting and if you'd like to discuss it further comments are open, as always. I'd be interested in knowing, well, how people see the subject and the characters and, etc. There are other examples on television, I'm sure, who I didn't reference, but don't let that stop you from bringing them up. For now, I'm going to go do something I'll actually get graded for and then go to bed. Sweet thoughts everyone.

[Notice: The above has spoilers through the CW's Supernatural; HBO's Carnivale; Fox's Firefly/Serenity the movie; the current U.S. airing of NBC's Heroes; WB/UPN's Buffy the Vampire Slayer; SciFi's Battlestar Galactica (2003); CW's Veronica Mars; and with references to SciFi's Stargate: SG-1 and WB's Charmed. Click at your own risk.]

- Andrea.
 
 
Current Mood: Oh, dear god, it's 3,700 words
Current Music: Skins (fanmix) - Paper Flames & Hearts
 
 
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Princess of Geekland: Evol Queen by Singe[info]princessofg on March 26th, 2007 10:48 am (UTC)
this is just brilliant. you taught me so much here; gave me words for things i've sensed but never studied.

thank you so much. i really think my writing is going to be better because of what you've done here; thank you so much for taking the time to post this and thank you for being you.

wow. just wow.
Saeva: Charmed + Chris Is A Cutey[info]saeva on March 26th, 2007 06:29 pm (UTC)
You're welcome! These are the comments I like to see, where it shows that my sitting down and writing nearly four thousand words wasn't an exercise in listening to myself type. *grins*

- Andrea.
quiescent[info]tielan on March 26th, 2007 10:52 am (UTC)
This is the first commentary I've read referencing Supernatural that has made me want to watch the show.

On the rest of the meta...I have nothing but agreement. I'll be back to see the dicussions engendered, however. :)
Honi Soit Qui Mal's Tight Pants: wantto[info]executrix on March 26th, 2007 11:33 am (UTC)
Thank you, great post! I hate it when someone so young can conceive and write something this good.

I see Mal a little differently, I think that after he's lost everything, what remains is still a brave and (harshly) loving man who believes in Justice even though he thinks he doesn't believe in anything. Hmmm, maybe I like Mal/Simon as a ship because Simon is, by your definition, a heroine?

As for Carnivale, I liked S1 a lot but thought S2 completely fell apart. I think of Ben as simply a man in quest of a father. (Wonder if he's an ancestor of Claire Bennet's BTW? He might conceivably still be alive in 2007.) How do you see Iris and Sofie in this analysis?

BTW, I went to what was a women's college then (now, alas, it's coed), and I was the manuscript typist for one of Florence Howe's books.
Saeva: Carnivale + Sofie In Profile[info]saeva on March 26th, 2007 06:11 pm (UTC)
First, with Mal, I never said he hadn't lost quite a lot. For him to fit the definition of hero I've laid out it only requires that he hasn't permanently lost his sense of what it means to be a good man and there's never truly a point we see him fall from that path, though there's points (especially at the beginning of Serenity the movie) where he comes close. This is actually fairly typical of the process a well-rounded hero goes through in a complex text but I didn't want to get into that or heroic journeys in this post -- just referencing Campbell once was more than enough.

In regards to Simon, there's two reasons I wouldn't class him as a heroine. (1), like Jayne, he isn't really a protagonist. He's part of the main cast but he's a supporting character. It's Mal's story, and it's River's story, and everyone else is sort of along for the ride. (2) He lacks the necessary quality of selflessness that distinguishes a heroine in particular.

Purity and nurture are qualities I'd be much more likely to give leeway to than self-sacrifice for the virtue of the whole, in terms of qualities that feminine qualities are required for a heroine. And even in context there, he isn't very nurturing. Because his background in medicine is from the Alliance and is established as very masculine and very cold (even the hospitals in the Alliance are that cold, lifeless blue.) So, overall, I would say that, no, I do not feel that Simon fits the definition of heroine I set out.

Finally, with Carnivale, Iris is, again, a supporting character. It isn't her story, not even in the sense that there's entire arcs of BtVS where it is about Faith's story and Faith's journey even though the overall story is, in fact, Buffy's. But, taking that aside, I think she's pretty firmly established as a villainess. Despite the fact she views herself as doing the right thing for the right reasons, it's well-established in the canon that narratively she is on the wrong side and has made the wrong choices. She vacilitates, mostly knowingly, Justin's rise to power and even procures him victims, purposefully.

Sofie, who is a protagonist, is the same by the end of the series. I suppose you could argue, if you wanted, that she takes the journey from heroine (who is pure, who nurtures her mother, who selflessly takes care of her infirmed mother despite the fact the woman ties her to the carnival and keeps her from a more fulfilling way of life) to villainess over the course of the show, but by the end of it she is firmly a villainess in my mind.

- Andrea.
Saeva: Firefly + Mal Is A Space Cowboy[info]saeva on March 26th, 2007 06:17 pm (UTC)
I feel the need to qualify something I said in my first comment: when I said that Simon wasn't selfless/didn't qualify as self-sacrificing in a heronic sense, I didn't mean to invalidate the sacrifice he did for his sister. However, a sacrifice for the personal, for someone he has a strong emotional connection with, is not a heronic quality. Peter Petrelli's sense of self-sacrifice, for example, is significant not because he's willing to die for Claire (who he doesn't know when he sets out to act anyway) but because he's willing to die to save the world.

Also, I hesitated to include Claire because most of her heronic potential is still, in fact, potential -- like most of the heroes on Heroes. However, within context of the canon, it's definitely lurking.

- Andrea.
green_grrl: SG1_Daniel[info]green_grrl on March 26th, 2007 06:17 pm (UTC)
Here via [info]princessofg. This is fascinating, as I've been thinking of Daniel and Vala in SG-1 a lot lately. And it seems to me that, in comparison to classic Hero Jack, Daniel is portrayed as a Hero with a touch of the Heroine. He has the bravery and independence of thought and loyalty, but he's also kind and empathetic, self-sacrificing, and pure enough to ascend. He's valued more when he persuades Jack to his point of view than when he fights or defies an order.

Vala is very much an anti-Heroine -- sexually aggressive, independent, amoral. Like the anti-Hero, she's motivated by fear/survival. Her character arc has brought her around, though, to being capable of self-sacrifice, since her exposure to Daniel. We don't really know what she was like when a child, though we know she faced hardship from a mean stepmother, then by being taken as a host by a goa'uld, then the struggle to survive on her own after being de-goa'ulded.

Fascinating lens to use to look at them -- thank you!
Saeva: SG1 + Daniel Is Not Amused[info]saeva on March 26th, 2007 06:51 pm (UTC)
If we're gonna discuss Daniel Jackson, I'm gonna need another post. *grins* No, seriously, when I was originally tossing this around in IM, back when I was whining I didn't want to type it up, I kicked around the idea of using Daniel Jackson as an example. And then I realized I couldn't because, well, the exchange in my head went a little something like this.

"He's All of the Above."

"All of the Above is an not an option; there is no E!"

"Well, have you watched the fucking show?"


But Daniel truly is all the above, at points, except perhaps anti-heroine (and even then, I could make the argument...) with an addition of villain to boot. So, when you talk about what category you're putting Daniel into, you need to talk about what Daniel you're talking about. Are you beginning at the movie? Which season are you discussing?

Daniel's journey, in the movie, began with self-serving interests. He wasn't the hero and he actively put everyone else at risk to satisfy his own curiosity; additionally, any heroic action he might have taken was in the course of pursuing his curiosity or protecting individuals he had come to value, especially Sha're. In that way, early TV Daniel was rooted in much the same sense and much the same motivation. He joined SG-1 for Sha're, to take back the happy life he had built for himself from the man/thing which had stolen it from him. He didn't want to save the world, he wanted to save his marriage.

Since my view of Daniel is very much rooted in the earliest seasons of him, I tend to view him as primarily an anti-hero, if anything. It's what got him into this mess in the first place and it isn't until Sha're dies that Daniel even begins a heroic journey with motivations beyond the personal and immediate. I wouldn't classify him as a heroine, however, except perhaps immediately after his deascension for a lot of reasons.

(1) Daniel Jackson was never particularly kind. He has a deep sense of fairness but there's great lengths he's willing to go to in order to perserve that sense, very unkind, very destructive lengths. (2) And purity is established over and over in canon (both SG-1 and SGA) as not something which is required for ascension -- acceptance is required, but not purity.

Anubis was able to ascend, after all, despite what he was because he, like Daniel, had Oma's help. Unlike Daniel -- who willingly gave up ascension because he was, well, too personally inclined not to -- Anubis had to be cast out by the other ascendants and that's also been established as only partially effective. Again, that has nothing to do with Anubis being pure, just stubborn and wanting ascension enough.

As for whether his value comes in fighting or not, that depends a lot on what you focus on and when you're talking about too. Daniel is, after all, the person to develop a working, lasting militia on Abydos, not Jack. Leading fighters makes you, in that sense, a fighter yourself. A general doesn't cease being a soldier because he's now no longer in the field, after all. That's one of the first things established about early television Daniel and a significant one I think a lot of people overlook.

But, because Daniel is so fluid and so changing over the course of the ten seasons of the show, I think that a lot of this is up to where you're personally focusing on to find the foundation of his character. I focus on his actions, throughout the series, in regards of Abydos because I think that's where it all really began and ended for the man Jackson was, but others focus more on his relationship with Jack post-Sha're or his force as a leader after Jack leaves SG-1, etc.

I would hestitate to say he has the qualities of a heroine, in general, however.

(I told you I'd need another post.)

I'd definitely agree that Vala is an anti-heroine. Not only for the reasons you cite but because we do know she was broken down and built back up/built herself back up. As I'd class that as a necessary step to create an anti-heroine (versus a villainess) obviously I'd say she fits under the definition I supposed.

Anyway, I'm glad you found it fascinating. *uses only Daniel icon I have*

- Andrea.

green_grrl: SG1_Daniel_hero[info]green_grrl on March 26th, 2007 09:13 pm (UTC)
E, all of the above, definitely! You're very right about Daniel being primarily self-serving in the movie -- though he did sacrifice himself to save Jack against the staff blast, and risked himself again to not kill the team.

And you're right that early seasons Daniel was overall motivated by the search for his wife. He was also, though, explicitly stated to be the team's conscience. Jack generally went on missions with the value system in mind of team-country-world, with saving the innocents nice if they could get around to it. Daniel tended to empathize first with strangers, partly due to curiosity but partly due to not sharing the military xenophobia. What I'm typifying as "kind" is his peaceful explorer friendly act and "But Jack we have to help them!" side, which walks the line between fair and kind. His treatment of Reece in Menace, for example. Daniel is absolutely ruthless against the enemy -- Hero over Heroine. And he can be verbally ruthless against friends, as well, when pissed off or strung out.

It's true ascension doesn't require purity, though we didn't know it at the time. The look of the ascended is angelic, and Daniel believed that meditation and spiritual study on Kheb were the path. In Meridian, his belief in his unworthiness held him back. (And Jack's self doubts definitely held him back in Abyss.) At the time of Daniel's ascension, I'd argue that TPTB were going for a hagiographical depiction of Daniel, even though later depictions of ascension have made it more complex.

As for whether his value comes in fighting or not, that depends a lot on what you focus on and when you're talking about too.

I didn't mean fighting in general -- Daniel's been okay with shooting the enemy from day one. (Excellent post here on it.) I only meant fighting Jack's orders, specifically. And Daniel does fight Jack, which paints him as not deferring to his man, as opposed to the times he uses his *koff*womanly*koff* arts of persuasion (god, I love subtext!). He does get called stubbon and, while they don't use the word, is portrayed as bitchy when he doesn't defer.

I will argue for E, all of the above, including Heroine, because the self-sacrificing thing is consistent, with the movie and Meridian being the most memorable examples.

(Here's an icon for this discussion. ;-)
Sophie[info]alias_sqbr on March 27th, 2007 12:27 pm (UTC)
oooh
That's awesome, you've changed the way I look at things and given me an interesting new perspective, it didn't occur to me to separate hero/heroine from gender but it totally works.

Here from [info]metafandom btw.
Erin: KA Keira Heroine Addict 2[info]erinya on March 27th, 2007 06:50 pm (UTC)
I really like this and I think you have an excellent point. For me, though (and pardon me if I'm missing a big chunk of your point here; I'm still kind of groping toward a unified theory with these ideas) it's still valuable to talk about female anti-heroes and anti-heroines separately from their male counterparts, because a big part of what interests me is how/if viewers might respond differently to these characters based on their femaleness: i.e. how people react to characters, and female characters in particular, who violate gendered narrative expectations--as well as how they are treated in text. The terms/concepts can be separated from their gendered meanings for the purpose of narrative analysis, as you have very skillfully, but I don't think they can be degendered completely when it comes to how an audience interacts with characters that belong to the various archetype.

Similarly, I think it's useful to look at how audiences respond to male characters in the heroine trope like Peter Petrelli, who are also violating gendered narrative expectations. I'm only involved peripherally in Heroes fandom, so I don't know how it shakes out there. I'd expect that he gets some flak for his "feminine" traits, though.
yourlibrarian: InterestingCordy-dragonydreams[info]yourlibrarian on March 27th, 2007 07:15 pm (UTC)
Very interesting discussion with some well chosen examples. Thanks for posting this. I was also interested by your reference to the change in your academic environment. I hope you end up making that post.
Jay Auris: Geeky Colbert[info]nighthawkms on March 27th, 2007 10:16 pm (UTC)
Over here from [info]metafandom. Wow, very nice observations. I like how you're definine hero and heroine as genderless terms, rather than describing a sex, they describe a set of qualities. I think, however, that there have to be more than 4 separate entities you can categorize characters into. I'm sure we've got crazy mixes like characters who are both heroes and anti-heroines, or something of that sort.

This begs the question: can villans be categorized in the same terms as these four groupings? Are there villans, villanesses, anti-villans and anti-villanesses? What categorizes them, and who fits into which categories?

I might have to meta myself on that question...
Saeva: ATS + Wes Bang Bang Baby Shot Me Down[info]saeva on March 28th, 2007 04:39 am (UTC)
I never meant to imply that characters can only be put into these four groupings. (1) I spent a whole paragraph talking about how only protagonists (main characters) can fit these roles anyway. (2) I stated I wasn't touching the villains category for now, at least. Though I can see how that'd easily get lost in all this text.

So, no, I don't think all characters fit into one of these four categories. There's villains, villainesses, sidekicks, exposition fairies and/or guidance roles, just to name a few. These are just the four primary ones for protagonists who are not villains (though villain protagonists with antagonists who are on the side of good are becoming more common).

And I talk in another comment about how Daniel Jackson of "Stargate: SG-1" doesn't fit into any of these categories, in part because he's been on the air for ten years plus a movie and in part just because he's a character who was designed to be very fluid in some ways. Sometimes character motivations change, which is usually the big teller as for what category they fit into even if the show isn't strictly a good and evil sort of show (Meredith Grey, of Grey's Anatomy, for example, is the heroine of the first season but that's becoming subsumed by Addison Montegomery-Sheppard as the hero in the third season now. But there isn't an "evil" on the show for them to fight.)

Anyway, yeah, this post is only discussing four roles and how those roles apply to popular (mostly science fiction) television. There's tons of other things to consider but then it'd be a manifesto, man.

- Andrea.
Staring. But it cannot stare. And it has no tail!: Fred (not the damsel)[info]thirdblindmouse on March 28th, 2007 02:36 am (UTC)
I never really thought about the different characteristics required of a hero versus a heroine (call me slow), but your gender-neutral definitions of the two and their opposites make worlds of sense. I couldn't figure out what was so different about Peter Petrelli, or what category could fit Lilah Morgan (the best I'd come up with was [info]jennyo's Femme), but heroine and anti-heroine suit them perfectly. *+mems*
tencel[info]tencel on March 28th, 2007 01:25 pm (UTC)
BTVS tangent
On the character of Faith, I always saw her as having an very rigid moral code, a bit like Xander: good people do good things, bad people do bad things. When she inadvertently did something that was on the wrong side of her moral code, she quickly classified herself as "bad", as if you can never work to get beyond your actions.

She's even a bit Xena in that way. Other people can say she's redeemed herself, but she will never be able to believe it would be possible. She doesn't go on the Slayer mission as a Slayer because she acts as if she no longer has the right to call herself part of that sisterhood. As much as the tension between herself and Buffy drove both of them to make Faith's fall from 'grace' personal, it was Faith following badness down the rabbit hole that made her so sad to me. Like Dean in SPN (a show I don't have access to) Faith believed the fight against evil was all she had going for her. When she killed Finch, she forfeited the best thing in her life.

Note: Faith and Xander are two of my favourite BTVS characters, even if they have trouble conceiving of grey areas...
Calligrafiti[info]calligrafiti on March 28th, 2007 10:33 pm (UTC)
Hmmm. Interesting. I came here from a link in [info]fyrdrakken's journal. I especially like your comparison of Sam and Dean in Supernatural. I think that Dean's nurturing nature (seen in flashbacks where he's taking care of Sam) almost pushes him toward the heroine side of things. Not sure I could make the argument for purity of body, though. I also like your analysis of River's character.
K, Bop or Boppy--take your pick!: Pilots: co-pathetic forever[info]bop_radar on March 29th, 2007 06:37 am (UTC)
I found this post very interesting--I haven't seen anyone make that distinction between Anti-hero and Anti-heroine quite so clearly before, though I've had discussions that skirted around the same issues.

[info]erinya's original post was a great read as well.

I'd put forward Lee Adama as heroine who passes through an anti-heroine phase. He has purity (emotional attachment to his partners, compared with Starbuck's promiscuity), the capacity for nurturing (both in his role as CAG and shown briefly with a child in Black Market) and selflessness (sacrifice of the Pegasus, flying Starbuck's wing, etc). But he's also got some the capacity to be an anti-heroine. Taking your definition (characters who began as representations of goodness, who have been broken down by the moral or social majority, and who were rebuilt into something outside of the moral lines but still capable of good actions) as a starting point, I'd say that in Lee's case it's the circumstances of the fleet's race for survival and the hypocrisy of its leaders that 'break' him. He believes steadfastly in democracy but is continually faced with having to bend rules and enter dark areas, not only in his public role but increasingly in his private life as well. This sits so uncomfortably with him that there comes a point when he welcomes death as a release from the struggle. He is 'tainted', selfish (an attribute he's had since the beginning of the series but which shows more under pressure), and he's sometimes accused of being 'cold'. Where the definition doesn't quite fit, imo, is in the degree to which Lee doesn't sit outside the moral boundaries more than other characters. He doesn't become a full anti-heroine, but fights to retain his heroine qualities. He does not see himself as good, but the recent bsg plot arc has his morality 'winning' over others.

I actually think Starbuck is both Hero and an Anti-Hero too. But I've rambled long enough. ;-)
Princess of Geekland[info]princessofg on March 29th, 2007 03:17 pm (UTC)
came back to read comments, and thank you for the elaboration on Daniel Jackson, who is, of course, my recent obsession... I guess I see him as a second hero for the story, but I agree, now that you've caused me to think it over, that you can frame him in various ways depending on what arc of the show you are looking at. I totally agree with your analysis of jack as the hero and daniel as anti-hero in the earliest seasons.... daniel's impulse to do the right thing for grand reasons was totally subsumed in his quest for sha're, and there's a lot of psychology there that is interesting.

also i had not taken a wide enough view of vala to consider her as an anti-heroine so thank you for that....

much to ponder here; thanks again.
Amsie: Authority Figure[info]shadowserenity on March 31st, 2007 01:52 am (UTC)
Just dropping you a reminder that your entry for Challenge 11 over at [info]lantis_lims is due today at 11PM EST.